Fake 18650 Li-Ion cells from China

As a rebuilder it is amazing what is offered in the replacement cells for power tool batteries.

I am no novice but like others I reach out for good deals to keep the rebuilds price comparable.

I purchased a box (100} of Li-Ion cells for stock  from a supplier in China. I was hoping to get 50% of the listed capacity out of the cells and as always I test each batch before installation.

To my amazement these cells produced less that 20% of their listed capacity and are practically unusable.

I pulled the wrapper off the cell to see what I had and discovered that the outer wrap was installed over another wrap that covered what I assume was the original wrap. There were no markings on the inner wraps but it was evident that the assembly of these cells was from at least three differing manufacturers.

This makes me wonder how many of our Asian suppliers are taking reject cells and repackaging them for the western market.

This is my own fault, I know better but you can not stand on your hands and not research new products.

This is an ongoing deliberation that will end up in frustration, but that's life.

Hitachi 18v Li-Ion power tool battery (Complete Rebuild)

Check this out in my EBay store

Hitachi 18v Li-Ion HXP Battery

Complete Rebuild

Item Number:  330640382241

Price $60.00

This item has been sold

Power tool battery output capacities. Myth or Fact ?

It is not unusual to question the facts in advertising. Yet in my younger years I believed most of what was published as fact. As I got older I now know that most things advertised is fiction.

I have always given the benefit of doubt to all publications but reserved the final decision until the facts presented themselves.

In the power tool battery rebuilding business I was forced to realize that the published output on any battery was questionable.

I advertised that I was building with 2200mah cells and yet after installing cells that were rated at that capacity I could not come close to that number. I was frustrated and confused what I was doing wrong and abused my test equipment as not accurate. After deep study in the industry I found that the test results at the manufacturer were tightly controlled under perfect conditions and the results were not linear with advertised numbers. Even if the numbers were consistent the amount of time the batch tested sits on a shelf before sold wildly influenced the final test.

After many months of  testing of comparable cells from many manufacturers it was apparent that just from one batch to another the testing was off the scale.

Soon after, I concluded that I could not depend on listed capacities and went to individual testing of all cells before installation.

As the result of this information I quit publishing output capacities and referred to output series only.

I have been talking about the output capacity of power tool battery cells, for the most part, but do not  forget that the billions of batteries sold every year are built for flashlights,  toys, camera's,  Etc. and the listed capacity on those are as erratic as the ones I use.

Don't get me wrong, there are really good batteries on the market that do just fine, but please, don't read the hype on the package and believe what it said. You will have to do what I do and check out the differing brands until you find the one that works for you.

Makita battery conversion Details

YOU ASKED,

Will this charger charge batteries that the chip timed out in? Also, what has been your experience with this charger in new Makita 1830li batteries. I'm a remodeling contractor and and have had 3 1830's go out last week and need a charger that can overcome this "chip" problem.
MY ANSWER,

Hi,

I have to say that irony has a way of bringing up a smile. What is the chance of Chip having a problem with a chip.

Anyway, no pun intended.

The universal charger that is in my offer would perform the function of analyses but when the fault in the battery comes up it will check out just like the Makita charger. The difference is the Makita charger reads the battery for information and will not respond when the chip in the battery opens.

I would suggest that all of your batteries have an internal problem (usually a bad cell) that has caused the battery to fail. Now if the chip has been tripped three times it can't be reset and your Makita charger will never recognize it again even after the fault has been neutralized.

If you have not tried to charge the batteries after the first fault the batteries could be rebuilt and then again recharged on your Makita charger. If the chip has been tripped then you have to use a universal charger after the battery is repaired or rebuilt.

Historically, what I have found is the one cell that powers the circuit board is the first cell to die and may be the only bad cell in the pack. This is not always the case but I would put my money on the thought.

If you could ship me the batteries I could run the tests to determine the problem with the batteries and if the chip has tripped or not. In either case the batteries can be rebuilt. The only question then is how you are going to charge them. The options are all better than tossing the batteries and replacing them with new.

Just a suggestion. Let me know.

Power tool battery Info

You Asked:

I really like what you do.

Why do you have different prices for the same type 18v Milwaukee NiCad? Are the higher price batteries better than the lower price batteries?

Can you repair Milwaukee Li-Lon V-18 batteries? We have 6 of them.

If so, what is the warranty?

My Answer;

Firstly, Thank you for the vote of confidence in the Eco Friendly program.

Secondly, The price difference in similar battery packs is based on the way I package them. There are Green rebuilds with salvaged used cells, Green rebuilds with recycled new cells.

I believe the quality is good in either rebuild but the output of the battery will vary on the available output of the cells I get.

There are many projects around the world where batteries were built for specific applications other than tool batteries and they have been placed on the market for cell salvage.

To salvage new cells from terminated projects is the prime way to make my Green project similar to a complete rebuild. The only difference is not being able to dictate the output of the cells I use. Batteries that have a output of 1.5ah are the most preferred for maximum advantage of the specific chemistry. When we use cells of 2.4ah output the peak output at full charge is significant. The down side to this build is the discharge is rapid and does not let the cell go through its regeneration process before discharged.

The output spec on available cells are as wild as MPG on vehicles. It looks good on paper but you better not drive into the desert utilizing the printed promises.

Thirdly, I can rebuild the Milwaukee V18 Lipo pack. The V18 departs from the normal offering of cell application from the 18650 Li Ion series most common in the industry to the larger Lipo A123 cell in your batteries. The new cells are readily available and if the circuit board is intact the rebuild is straight forward and rewarding.

I hope that is not to much information but I have a habit or rambling.

Wanrranty for rebuilds is 180 days.

Please let me know if I can help you.

Thank you,

Eco Friendly Battery Rebuilds for Power Tools

I worked a whole winter on development of the Eco Friendly Rebuild so I could offer a low cost alternative for complete rebuilds or new replacement.

The most difficult function was developing an accurate way to determine the difference of a shorted cell and a cell that was reusable. Once I worked out the procedures of testing I offered the rebuild and noted in the offer that most battery packs deemed unusable had only a couple of bad cells in the mix.

For the first year the success rate on rebuilds were excellent with less than one percent of the packs being returned for repair. That percentage still exists today but the amount of dead cells in a pack has gone from a couple to the whole pack. I still am producing Green rebuilds and feel confident in the markets success to keep pushing forward however the large supply of surplus used cells is nearly depleted.

Most people that use their head for more than holding up their hat have figured out the value of my (Green)offer and have taken advantage of the program and have used this offer rather than a complete rebuild.

What this has done is diminish the amount of usable cells that were gleaned from complete rebuilds  that is required to keep my program going.

I will have to designate the amount of  bad cells that can be in a battery pack to qualify for a Green rebuild  and require complete rebuilds on those packs that exceed that number. This should bring more usable used cells back into the program.

This has been an interesting development.

Makita Li-Ion power tool battery option

For those people who have a problem with Makita's circuit boards "untimely" time out problem I have posted an option to allow the rebuilding of these batteries and I have recently posted a battery/charger package on eBay.

I have tested these batteries throughout the charge/discharge range and find that the four algorithms assigned to safety function normally and it is now possible to take those timed out batteries and put them back into service.

The charger I have assigned to the package will work with any 18v Li-Ion battery allowing broad range use.

I have modified the case to accept the new charger leads and the hookup is simple. In fact in my lab this is the same type of charger I use on all my rebuilds.

If this information is important for people that purchased these batteries and do not want to scrap them and replace with new can take advantage of this Resurrection program.

If anyone is interested in the program I need cases to work with and I believe this option is a reasonable way to overcome an inconvenience as well as added expense. There are many of these affected cases being sold as rebuildable in many venues and I do not believe the information is widely understood that if they have timed out they can not be charged on a proprietary charger.

I bought two (2) dozen New Craftsman Diehard Li-Ion batteries that had a similar circuit board problem.

I was able salvaged ten (10) cases and circuit boards to rebuild. I added new cells and have offered these batteries which are basically brand new to the public. These batteries were never issued to the public but sold as salvage. I am so Eco Friendly oriented I had to give it a try. I will go back and pull the remainder of the circuit boards out and find those that only have a charging problem and offer them in a similar package as listed above.

Li-Ion cells are inherently dangerous and no one should believe they can cut corners with these cells and eliminate the safety protocols. I have deliberately popped these cells with abuse and they are nasty.

Li-Ion is the cell of the future and with respect and care will replace all other cells eventually.

Power Tool Battery Rebuild DIY

You Asked,

Is it possible to purchase cells and cases to rebuild as a DIY project?

My Answer,

Firstly, thank you for the order of 3 Craftsman Lithium batteries. I will get them packed up and out in tomorrows mail.

Secondly, I get most of my cases from the customers when they need an upgrade or rebuild. It is better for them to send me their cases to make sure I can fill their orders.

I do buy recycled cases from a variety of entities and rebuild them for direct sales.

I do buy cells wholesale to rebuild with.

Cells are available for DIY if a person feels they have the ability to do the rebuild.

I operate a complete battery lab with all the necessary equipment to get the job done. The equipment alone costs tens of thousands of dollars and a person would have to have a big need for rebuilt batteries to justify a DIY operation.

There is also a large learning curve to properly rebuild batteries alone with the computerized equipment to test with.

The Lithium Ion batteries you have purchased have an inherent danger factor in the cells that requires a computer within the battery to control the balance of all cells. The computer will shut down the battery or charging event if there is any fault withing the pack. If misused, the cells will explode and could possibly ruin your day.

I would discourage you from rebuilding unless you have been properly trained in the chemistry of these power units. I rework a large number of batteries that customers made an attempt to rebuild.

With that said, It would not be me that would dictate to talented individuals to not learn about the industry.

Thank you for asking,

Ernie

Rebuilt tool battery charging hints

You Asked.

When did you rebuild this battery and how long will it hold a full charge?

My answer,

Hi,

I rebuilt the battery in the recent past. It does not have a sticker on it so that means it has not been inventoried as stock yet.

As a matter of information only, a battery built with sub c cells by nature will lose
approximately 1% of its voltage in 24 hrs. Conceivably in a 30 day time period the battery, rebuilt, or brand new, will lose approximately 30% of its charge.

This knowledge is very important to me when I hear from someone that their battery is in excellent condition with little use on it as it sets around most of the time. All batteries have to be maintained to survive. A ni-CD battery will become useless if not maintained after the initial charge takes place.

Thank you for your interest.

Ernie

Upgrading Milwaukee M18 XC power tool battery

You asked,

Can you rebuild this pack with larger capacity cells, yet retain the BMS and mounting point so I can still be attached to the weed eater as well as the factory charger?

My Answer,

Interesting question.

If you have a M18 XC battery the capacity should be rated at 2.8ah. The ratings are not linear and to acheive listed capacity you have to fudge the numbers. Nevertheless the output is what it is regardless at how you play with it.

Your battery has a double stack, or (10) ten cells rated at 1.4ah giving you a total of 2.8ah. If we can find a good cell of 3.0ah rated output you could conceivably increase your run time by 100%. But in the real world with pack losses in multiple bus connections, ambient and operation temperature, tool condition, fudge factors, etc, the mathematically reality is lost.

The answer to your question is, Yes we can increase the capacity by changing the cells.

The questions I have is; Will the circuit board take the extra heat without shutting down the pack, as they are designed to do, and would that cause you a problem to let the pack cool down, or could we install a fan as some high voltage batteries have to help it cool.

The last question I have is, how much would you want to spend? I love doing these things but there are always consequences that have to be understood. It is similar to our racing program where we had to ask, How fast do we want to go and how much do we have to spend? We called it "Cubic Dollars".

Keep in touch, I would love to work with you.

Thank you,

Ernie

Craftsman Li-Ion 19.2v power tool batteries

I have purchased a sizable number of Craftsman 19.2v Li Ion tool batteries that have never been in a tool.

It seems that there was probably a manufacturing glitch  that rendered all these new batteries into unusable fodder.

After receiving the first order I disassembled each battery to analyze the problem. In every case there were a series of bloated cells that were subjected to high voltage, heat or both.

In some cases the pressure in the cells vented fluids into the pack corroding those metal parts that were exposed. Those cells that were not effected were as new, testing to 4.2v each. There were not many in each pack and none in some. There was random bursting of the cells position and that leads to no obvious conclusion as to a specific cause.

Nevertheless, I have assembled a number of those battery packs with existing cells or in some cases new cells and tested them thoroughly, not only with test equipment but in actual tool tests. The performance is exceptional.

I might state that some circuit boards were damaged in the event of question and there is no hope for repair on them.

I have placed one of these rebuilt batteries in my eBay store and have many more available.

This is a great chance to get as close to a new battery as is available at a reduced cost. I am asking $65.00 each for the completely warrantied battery pack.

Who rebuilds power tool batteries? We do !

REBUILDING IS RECYCLING

I have been asked often as to whether I rebuild as a hobby or business.

The answer is neither.

 I am a retired contractor that has more time on my hands than needed.

 I built my small State of the Art, battery lab years ago to supply my own needs in the construction industry.

I have produced many hundreds of rebuilds for a wide variety of users.

I do not strive to rebuild every battery in the world and am very comfortable to work with a select client base that appreciates the quality and personal availability I offer.

Also, being Eco Friendly is a most important thought provoking theme right now.

My small company will promote a positive image by offering optional products which are Eco Friendly.

These products not only portray a good image to my customers but also help increase my companies moral by showing that I am doing my part to help the enviroment.

Please explore my store for some exciting new Eco Friendly products. These products will help to make choices and have you thinking that Eco Friendly is not only good for the enviroment but good for your moral.

All Eco Friendly products will be marked with the Green Earth logo and the little battery pointing the way.

We hope you enjoy your visit to my store and if you have any questions please feel free to contact me.

Thank you for your interest,

Ernie

Makita tool battery charger options

YOU ASKED,

What would you recomend for an optional battery charger for a Makita LXT with a bad chip?

MY ANSWER.

I believe that Makita has probably taken care of the discussed problems with there new production but we will never know. Also the fact that there is a device to reset the chip is possibly a figment of someones imagination. I hope it is true but who knows.

 

As a re builder I am very cautious not to mislead my customers about the possibility to rebuild their batteries without a disclaimer. It is possible to change out cells but that does not constitute a rebuild if it can not be charged.

 

The type of charger you need is obviously one designed for Li-Ion batteries and offers at least two parameters of protection. I prefer a third parameter but it is not mandatory.

 

1. Protection from overcharge.

 

2. Protection from undercharge.

 

3. Protection from heat buildup. (Optional) 

No chargers, even the OEM makita will balance cells within the pack. They only detect unbalance. If a cell is bad the charger shuts down. If that happens the only recourse is to find that cell and replace it with another that matches the rest of the pack.

 

The charger I will recomend has the ability to balance individual cells for optimum performance but will not make a bad cell work again.

 

With that said, I will list the charger I like, to replace your OEM unit.

 

This charger is on sale right now and goes off sale on 9/10/11.

 

http://www.all-battery.com/tenergytb6b-charger-combo-90263.aspx

 

Remember, I am a battery rebuilder and share information for the possibility of future interaction in my small business.

Power tool battery compatibility and rebuild responsibility

I rebuilt a Dewalt battery from a customer in Pennsylvania who was preparing to re roof a large historical barn. His interest was to make sure he had enough batteries available to minimise his accent and decent from the roof 60' from the ground.

He shipped me his case and I rebuilt it to OEM spec and shipped it back to him. Within a few days he emailed me that he could not charge the new rebuild. Dewalt produced a fairly common battery for their tools and rebuilds are straight forward.

He asked if he could ship it back but I suggested that I would rebuild another pack for him and quickly get it to him allowing him to return the other back at his convenience. If that was the end of the story I would not have posted these details. He emailed me when he received the new rebuild that he could not charge either battery.

I reminded him that as far as I knew, Dewalt had only used two NI-CD chemistry's in there battery history and unless he had a "Univolt" system he should be getting the job done. The battery he sent me was not for a univolt system so I assumed that was not possible.

The next day he notified me that he had communicated with Dewalt and they sent him to their factory rep for suggestions.

The following is his report.

Ernie,

I went to a nearby shop to get help on my charging problem.

Suffice to say, this guy knows his batteries. What he told me, and showed to me, made everything clear: First of all, there is no amount of rewiring...or any other modifications, that can make your 2300-mAh batteries charge on any of my chargers. All of my chargers were built and sold in the days of 1300-mAh and 2000-mAh (max capacity) batteries. The reason they will not charge is because my old chargers run a short diagnostic to determine if the batteries have any problems (dead-shorts and/or open or damaged cells). The 2300-mAh batteries you use in your packs have an internal impedance which is simply out-of-tolerance for my chargers. Therefore, no amount of rewiring is going to correct the problem.  Besides, there is only one way to wire these 12 sub-C cells in order to get 14.4 volts. And, by the way, Mr. Lyons complemented you on the quality of your work. He was impressed with your welding and the cell arrangement.  So, bottom line, there is no way that these two rebuilt packs can be recharged with any of my old chargers...because they were not built to the original specifications of the old DW9091 and B&D 97152 batteries. Lyons then showed me that the Dewalt DW9116 charger will charge all of my batteries; my old ones and both of the batteries you have rebuilt. The DW9116 has the largest acceptable test range, so it will charge everything from 1300-mAh to 2400-mAh batteries. Incidentally, your DC9310 charger also has a rather wide acceptability range, but Lyons thinks it may not go all the way down to the impedance of the 1100-mAh cells B&D originally used.  This knowledge cost me $56.85...$33.63 for a new-old-stock DW9116 charger and $20 for taking apart your second rebuilt battery, checking the construction, and putting it back together, and PA sales tax.

So now I have what I need to get started on the barn (which we are planning to start tomorrow morning). Since I am not particularly happy in having to spend $107.12 (for the first rebuilt battery, new charger, consultation, and extra postage) for one battery, I would like you to let me know how much I owe you for the second rebuild, I'll Paypal you the payment, and we can call it knowledge gained.

 

Lance

 

The moral to this story is, "If you are looking for new parts or updating old systems ask all the questions you can think of".  before ordering.

Batteries before and after rebuilding, recycling.

This illustrates what the typical battery looks like when it is sent to me.

I call this a swimmer. Tools are let set in the weather or in tool trays that collects water until the pack looks like this.

There are vents on the bottom of the case that provides ventilation for cooling. The vent tube only go into the battery 3/8" and when the water get higher than that the pack has to tread water.

No matter that you notice,  the water has no way to get out. The only way to dry it out is to dissasemble it.




The pack on the bottom is ready to install in the case for a new lease on life.

Rest assurd, if it sets in more than 3/8" of water it will look like the one on top. They are not good swimmers.

Differences in Eco Friendly battery rebuilds and complete battery rebuild.

Eco Friendly Rebuild

The used batteries that I have offered as Eco Friendly have been disassembled, and cells tested for usability. I take a comparable set of used cells that produce a minimum of 1300mah and install that pack in my cases to complete the repair. They are tested on the computer.

Complete Rebuild 
The batteries that are being sold as Seller Refurbished are those that have been disassembled, all cells removed, a new pack is built and installed utilizing new cells of 2200mah in a customer provided case, tested, and sent back to the customer.

Either battery Eco Friendly or Complete Rebuild are repaired in a battery lab with state of the art equipment by a qualified technician.

In an Eco Friendly world the process of rebuilding batteries alone supports the overall interest to clean up and control hazardous waste in our enviroment.

The big advantage to an Eco Friendly rebuild is the using of all cells that are deemed usable by the test equipment and the overall cost to the consumer. Each rebuild has a warranty and complete support from our operation.

This is a Win Win approach to hazardous waste reduction.

Makita power tool battery circuit board problems

When a person gets in his late 70's he believes he knows most things. Rest assured that is not true and I have allowed myself to learn anything I can.Here is what I have learned lately;

Makita in their wisdom created a battery protection system unlike any other on the market. There Li-Ion batteries and chargers operate from four parameters of information. All parameters must be met before the battery can be charged. If one parameter fails the circuit board in the battery gives the charger three attempts to function. If it fails to comply the chip in the battery shuts the charging circuit down permanently. This wisdom was probably implemented in a safety protocol all corporations use against liability these days. They think.

I thought this was some conspiracy theory by other entities, but in my opinion it is not.

Bottom line,

I have two perfectly good batteries sitting here that I can charge with all safety features intact, but they can't be charged with a Makita charger.

I use a universal smart charger that performs all safety parameters as the Makita but is not influenced by the Makita chip. My charger has the ability to charge multiple batteries at a time of all brands but cannot perform the function of product brand specifics.

Once I run the gambit of tests and conclude the battery is functional I still do not know if the specific brand charger will charge or not without having that charger. This implies that I have to have dozens of chargers in house to know if I am finished or not.

I think technology has come close to perfecting the perfect OSHA approved device. If the charger does not charge no one can be hurt. Perfect world, unless you need to use power tools.

Eco Friendly power tool battery rebuild, recycling

Being Eco Friendly is an important responsibility.

These batteries like others listed in my store are those that have been disposed of either in recycling or in landfills. Most of these batteries were unusable, mostly by the shorting out of a cell or two.

I completely disassemble each unit and test all cells for   usability. 
I add cells from other teardowns of like compatibility until I get a pack that performs.  This minimizes the impact to the enviroment as well as supplying my customers to low cost replacements.

Almost 90% of recycled power tool batteries and similar types of batteries around the job or house are generally put into landfills. There is not enough volume of recyclable materials to promote recovery operations. You might have good intentions and put your batteries in a recycle container but sadly they are not.

Purchasing this battery will not change the worlds problems with hazardous waste, but it all helps. 

I have invested a lot of time in this program and so far it has proven successful. I feel better and the customer gets a good product with a warranty.

The process includes at least the following:

1- Completely dismantle used batteries, Test all cells and replace those that fail. Test the pack on a computer aided breakdown testing unit and confirm the rebuilds usability.

2.  The battery is ready to go back to work,

3. Full replacement 30 day warranty.

4. See my eBay store for details.

Power tool battery rebuild performance information for professional and craftsman.

Most batteries have a limited cellular construction with an average of 1300mah output. This is normally enough for small projects in the vicinity of a charging unit and a ample supply of backup batteries for continuous operation. As a contractor it seemed that the further we were away from support equipment or the higher we worked off the ground the greater the risk of failing to complete the job with the available batteries within arms reach. After climbing down the scaffold or walking across the field a number of times it was obvious the amount of batteries we packed increased as our stamina declined. Most power tools utilize batteries with Nickle Cadmium chemistry. These have worked very well but are restricted by output in a sub c format. There are new higher output cells to replace the lower output OEM units. A discouraging fact with sub c cells is the inherent loss of power as a cell sets. A ni-cd cell will lose 1% of its available power every 24 hours. Or 30% each month. This requires a program of maintenance to keep batteries at their maximum performance level. If not, just expect another trip or two down the ladder. We can rebuild with Nickle Metal Hydride cells. This chemistry allows us a higher output than Nickle Cadmium. In some cases the output is double. Batteries rebuilt with either Ni-Cd or Ni-MH will offer approximately 500 cycles of charge/discharge before problems. The difference is the amount of usability between cycles. NI-MH batteries of 3500mah compared to NI-Cd 1300mah is obvious. Do the math. This increase in performance is significant to the usability of cordless power tools. All batteries we rebuild will be tested on a computer aided battery analyzer prior to shipment. It takes up to four charge/recharge cycles to balance a pack to its maximum capabilities. This record will become a permanent baseline and record of every battery we rebuild. If there is a suspected problem with a battery pack after delivery we can compare tests with the records upon its return to us.   Next blog will explain the advantages of "Eco Friendly Rebuilds". OUR BATTERIES ARE REBUILT FOR THE HARD CORE PROFESSIONAL OR CRAFTSMAN WHO NEEDS PERFORMANCE FROM THEIR POWER TOOLS.